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Srećkove Zavrzlame


Srecko

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Znao sam da ste od mene znatno kvalitetniji, no priznajem da ste me baš prijatno iznenadili (a nije me u ovim godinama lako iznenaditi).
Volim kada je neko naš (Srbin) znalac u bilo čemu.
Ponekad baš nekritički, zdravo za gotovo, prihvatam autoritet stranaca poput Allana Shaw makar on bio i vlasnik i konstruktor Harbeth (uostalom u Srbiji mnogi i onako misle da Harbeth ……………. jer jednostavno ne prija srpskim ušima).
Očito da bih morao da poradim na sebi.

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cesta je pojava da se izjave etabliranih profesionalaca tumace na drugaciji nacin od nameravanog

imam utisak da je cika Allan daleko manje iskljuciv nego sto to ispada ..... msm, mora biti, s obzirom na to koliko dugo je u poslu - ili imas siroke vidike i opstajes, ili nemas pa te pojede konkurencija ..... 

 

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Pretpostavljam da Alann Shaw nije mislio BUKVALNO.
To je rekao u vezi sa stalnim pitanjima (koja mu kupci upućuju) koji bi pojačavač preporučio za svoje Harbeth zvučnike.
Jasno je rekao da preporučuje pojačavač nov ili dobro održavan (u performansama koje je proizvođač propisao) jer se na planu pojačavača u poslednjih nekoliko desetina godina ništa spektakularno nije dogodilo.
Takođe je rekao fabrika Harbeth ima na stotine pojačavača (i veoma starih) koje redovno servisiraju za potrebe ispitivanja i faznih testiranja svojih proizvoda.
Posebno je skrenuo pažnju da kupac pojačavača treba da obrati pažnju pri kupovini pojačavača na kvalitet servisnih usluga i pomenuo sopstvene probleme sa firmom Hegel.
Jedino je u postu bilo primetno da nije ljubitelj pojačavača sa lampama (meni to njegovo objasnjenje izgleda veoma razumno) i taj njegov post sam već postovao na forumu.

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Pre sat vremena, Srecko reče

nije ljubitelj pojačavača sa lampama

Idi begaj. :laugh1:

Nego da te pitam,  zar nije praktičnije uzeti neki skromniji DAC za drugi sistem, a ovaj ostaviti za glavni ako si već zadovoljan, ili je zacrtano drugačije?

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15 hours ago, Zen Mod said:

dok vi seirite, ljudi se naslusase muzike sa TDA1540, 1541 i 1543

:Viannen_loungelizard:

Sto se mene tice ja se naslusavam i sa Fio d03k koji kosta par hiljada din, nisam od onih koji se pale na to koliko koji dac kosta nego koliko koji dobro svira. R2r tehnologija trenutno najbolji zvuk ima pa tako i taj stari tda1540, cak vise verujem u 1bit dsd tehnologiju zasnovanu na malo drugacijem r2r pristupu kao sto je dsc na primer.

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@Srecko, nisu u pravu! Tehnologija pojacivaca je napredovala do te mere da su dosli do efikasnosti od skoro 100%, recimo D klasa pojacivaca, jedan primer. Ja ti mogu preporuciti jedno jeftino pojacalo cisto da ga cujes i da se prijatno iznenadis kako dobro svira https://alexnld.com/product/3pcs-pam8610-dual-channel-dc-12v-15w-x-2-class-d-hd-digital-audio-stereo-high-power-amplifier-board/ . Englezi su poznati po jakom marketingu zato bi glas pre dao italijanima ili francuzima na primer kada bi birao zvucnike po meri.

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17 hours ago, Zen Mod said:

dok vi seirite, ljudi se naslusase muzike sa TDA1540, 1541 i 1543

:Viannen_loungelizard:

Pfff... ...i sa tranzistora kad nije bilo bolje. I bilo mi strava :)

Offtopic: Kupio lepšoj polovini JBL Clip 4. Šta izlazi iz onog mališe... :unbelieveble:

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6 minutes ago, ManicP said:

Pfff... ...i sa tranzistora kad nije bilo bolje. I bilo mi strava :)

Offtopic: Kupio lepšoj polovini JBL Clip 4. Šta izlazi iz onog mališe... :unbelieveble:

Pa eto ti dobar primer u vezi digitalije i efikasnosti novih pojacala. Ovo j izaslo u julu https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/adau1850.pdf , dimenzije 2mm x 1.2mm sa sve DSP, adc i dac, sad da vidis nove slusalice kad izadju zasnovane na njemu

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Idi begaj. 
Nego da te pitam,  zar nije praktičnije uzeti neki skromniji DAC za drugi sistem, a ovaj ostaviti za glavni ako si već zadovoljan, ili je zacrtano drugačije?

Da budem iskren nemam nikakvih zamerki na moj DAC i moje Linearno napajanje (moguće je i da su moje godine razlog što ne čujem iako mislim da mi sluh nije liš naprotiv).
Mnogo više imam primedaba na kvalitet materijala koji slušam u smislu da mi se često ne dopada kako je produciran da ne govorim o namerno istaknutim delovima koji verujem da ni u jednoj sobi niti sa bilo kojim sistemom (osim u automobilu) ne zvuči dobro.
Dakle moglo bi i nešto drugo, Chord mi je pao na pamet samo zbog FPGA jer mi se nekako čini da je taj pravac pun pogodak, a i mnogi Srbi kažu da su im DAC-ovi odlični zvučno.
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51 minutes ago, Srecko said:


moguće je i da su moje godine razlog što ne čujem iako mislim da mi sluh nije liš naprotiv

Do koliko K dobacis ovde? 

Ja oko 15k na glasno, oko 13.5k na maloj jacini

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nije ljubitelj pojačavača sa lampama
verovatno zato sto treba mrcina od pojacala da bi mrtve kutije prosvirale.
[emoji4]

Evo posta Allan Shaw pa zaključite sami.
Meni je sve jasno a i fizika nije zakinuta.

Posedujem i sam Dynaco ST-70 i volim da ga slušam ali sa aspekta fizike Shaw je u pravu.

ALLAN SHAW post
Amplifier specifications - our very best friend. An explanation for the non-technical teenager.

Rather than return to the office after our break, I'm going to have one, hopefully final attempt to convey the essential point about amplifier sonics. It's a fair point reported earlier thin this thread that 'ordinary folk can't understand the Stereophile technical graphs', so let see if we can demystify them.

CAVEAT: I have used as data the two links that were posted by ordinary contributors in the thread above. I could have gone hunting for any number of alternatives, but this saves time. So I cannot say, and will not say, whether these are typical of what's available in amplifier land nor pass comment on their designer's philosophy or commercial acumen; I'm just recycling what went before.

We start with cleaning up the printed technical graph of the tube amplifier (Graph A) to simplify for the non technical reader. It looks like this now:

b42ba734232f178ceac043af2aa58efb.jpg

I've added underneath a piano keyboard for those more familiar with musical notes than technical frequencies.

Ok so what? We see a line (a graph trace) that wiggles up and down as it traverses the piano scale, and beyond. Remember: there are many pure tones (fundamentals) beyond the highest keys on the piano, and a few below the lowest leys, so in terms of pure tones, the piano only covers a range of about 20Hz to 4kHz, when the audio band has long been established as 20Hz to 20kHz for high fidelity sound. Other instruments 'take over from' the piano's upper range and use the higher ranges of the audio spectrum (violin, brass etc.) which is just as well as it gives the composer a wide tonal tool box to work from.

So let's look at the vertical axis, marked on the left as being in dB (decibels). (I'm a bit confused by the little A shown; I doubt that it means that axis is in dbA weighting when measuring an amplifier, so suspect that it refers to the audio analyser's channel A).

It's really handy that audio graphs almost invariable are scaled in dBs in the vertical axis (and frequency in the horizontal axis) because regardless of the make of audio analysis equipment that was used in the lab, we can make prefect visual comparisons of what is actually columns of numbers that lie behind the graph data. Sometimes though, we have to visually squeeze or stretch the graph to be able to compare apples with apples, but the beauty of working in Y axis dB and X axis frequency is that it is 100% legitimate to do so. But ONLY when we are working in dBs and Hz.

Now we have our Graph A of our tube amp, we can present the graph of the solid state amplifier mentioned above, Graph B. If we take a snapshot of the graph, it looks like this:

51d10f5e41965a698cb62353eb63a7be.jpg

We have a problem. The visual appearance of Graph A and B is so radically different that we are in grave danger of misinterpreting any useful technical information contained therein. Even though, as you will see from the little Ap symbol in the top right of the graphs that the same Audio Precision analyser has been used. What we are witnessing is two different generations of Ap equipment with very different graph presentational capabilities (over twenty years part).

So, to be in a position to safely compare these two, we need to stretch and squeeze one of the graphs relative to the other to make them exactly visually comparable. Remember - this is only legitimate if we work in dBs and Hz, as we are. It is not a cheat - it does not change the underlying data, but it corrects the different aspect ratio and scaling of the graphs for the human eye to make sense of the information.

So having done that, I can now place Graph A and Graph B side by side, confident that they are displaying information that is visually cross-comparable, here:

Now that I have carefully adjusted the axis of B to be identical to A (as best as I can, visually) we can present them together. If we are more curious about the way the amps cover the horizontal frequency range, we might wish to place A and B one over the other like this:

ecc61869d59be2e11e51f32351f38c56.jpg

If we are more curious about how the dB (loudness) of the two amps v. frequency, then we might present their graphs side by side like this:

ff0acd2bbd93dfc4ca29854730c05e8f.jpg

Whether we prefer the one over the other or the side by side presentation is a matter of choice - I prefer the side by side graph immediately above. And yes, Graph B does now have a visual aspect ratio that is very much different from how it was originally but we can prove that the scaling is exactly comparable with Graph A, here: (I'm showing the vertical scale cross-comparison - you can verify the horizontal one for yourself from the above graphs):

7f42bd33fab1526ed7cd8c47d1123d60.jpg

So now we are at the point that we can make proper visual comparisons between the performance of these two amplifiers.

Is it immediately apparent that as far as B is concerned, it's output is exceptionally flat across the audio band and far beyond it, and that A's output is greatly effected by the speaker load?

So now we can consider for A, which frequencies (or octaves, or part-octaves) are going to be boosted or attenuated across the musical scale. The graph tells us that unambiguously. Again, lucky for us that the vertical scale is in dB, and by convention, such graphs are usually presented centred around the 0dB line. That makes it really easy for a human to see clearly what the deviation is across the audio band. So I've drawn in the zero dB line in orange, here:

86847b55ffeb5010aab5befa25dc4339.jpg

Now we have this line - and as you can see, the entire response of SS amplifier B traces the ideal 0dB line across the audio band - we can colour in which groups of notes will be made louder to the listener and which notes quieter like this:

2d4c55936227c04b8e864769b1f43981.jpg

Now the picture is clear. Some, but not all, musical octaves will have enhanced loudness when this amplifier drives a typical speaker load, and some will have reduced loudness. 'Loudness' is always associated in the human brain with predictable and long understood subjective sensations, so knowing those, we can reliably anticipate the subjective sensation that this amplifier would create in the listener's brain when it is driving the typical speaker load. When driving another speaker load, or even no speaker at all and just a straight resistance, then very different results may occur.

We can attribute some generic audiophile adjectives (plenty to chose from) and identify them:

7bf8669cb35eb9087e51ab04074720be.jpg

Considering that the subjective experience is so well understood by audiologists, it could be anticipated that a similar subjective outcome could be synthesised under lab conditions to guinea pig students by routing the audio through a graphic equaliser and into Amp B.

Of course, as with all matters in hifi one man's preference is another's detestation, but Stereophile have given us the tools to make an educated stab at how any amplifier is likely to modify the audio spectrum when driving a real-world load. Which you chose is entirely up to you. This has taken a morning - a hope you find it can guide you better to neutrality or otherwise in your amp selection.
 
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Sto se mene tice ja se naslusavam i sa Fio d03k koji kosta par hiljada din, nisam od onih koji se pale na to koliko koji dac kosta nego koliko koji dobro svira. R2r tehnologija trenutno najbolji zvuk ima pa tako i taj stari tda1540, cak vise verujem u 1bit dsd tehnologiju zasnovanu na malo drugacijem r2r pristupu kao sto je dsc na primer.

Da znam da sebi napravim R2R DAC i ja bih, ni ne znam.
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@Srecko, nisu u pravu! Tehnologija pojacivaca je napredovala do te mere da su dosli do efikasnosti od skoro 100%, recimo D klasa pojacivaca, jedan primer. Ja ti mogu preporuciti jedno jeftino pojacalo cisto da ga cujes i da se prijatno iznenadis kako dobro svira https://alexnld.com/product/3pcs-pam8610-dual-channel-dc-12v-15w-x-2-class-d-hd-digital-audio-stereo-high-power-amplifier-board/ . Englezi su poznati po jakom marketingu zato bi glas pre dao italijanima ili francuzima na primer kada bi birao zvucnike po meri.

Naravno da je D klasa “nova” stvar.
Ja sam slušao neke pojačavače D klase i po meni to dobro radi (sve sto mi se sviđa ili goji ili se ide H zatvor zbog toga ili ……).
Allan Shaw je pisao i o pojačavačima D klase i (kako sam ja shvatio) smatra da ta tehnologija još uvek nije onakva kakva on smatra da treba da bude.
Emituje signal učestanosti iznad 50kHz (van čujnog opsega membrana kada iz izvora ne dobija ama baš nikakav signal).
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dokaz da sve sto je skupo i papreno skupo, ne mora da bude vrhunsko.
evo primer - skretnica iz Harbet-a koji kostaju 2200 funti.
takva skretnica im ne prilici.
[emoji20]
 
HHH.png.d0320b278c49d08863cf180fe5e08343.png

Gospodine Brko.
Svi Harbeth su malte ne upgrade (po nečemu) “BBC proizvoda”.
Skretnice takođe.
Da li se može skretnica bolje napraviti, verovatno no pitanje je da li bi takva skretnica uticala na izlaz zvučne kutije (F. karakteristiku).
Ako stavim motor Hemi npr. u fiću karoserija neće izdržati.
Sistem nije skup najboljih nego odgovarajućih komponenata.
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